The Glamorous Life of Band Widows

[churnage]

Donna,

I misspelled your pseudonym last post. Sorry about that.

Just finished the script. Your theme is Failed Dreams. That's extremely powerful. Everybody can relate to it. Unfortunately, you don't fully exploit that theme to the max.

Here are my thoughts. If you disagree with anything here, please disregard.

WHAT I LIKED

--The touching scenes between Bill and Peg watching the planes at the airport

--Peg dealing with the burden of "single" parenthood. The scene when she's rehearsing and he's supposed to babysit was really powerful.

--Peg learning about how mean Dixie was to her kids.

--The depiction of a marriage in crisis (various scenes)


WHAT I HAD MIXED FEELINGS ABOUT

--The ring-grabbing scene. It was powerful and I had never seen anything like this before. That's good.

On the other hand, I didn't believe it, as it's currently written. One reason is that we don't have enough info about Peg and Tara's relationship. We get that way later, but even then it doesn't seem enough. Her relationships with her kids seems a big opportunity to explore some more. Also, it would make it more believable if she had a few more drinks in her.

WHAT DIDN'T WORK FOR ME

--The endless parade of band members & band widows. I just got lost in all the names.

--Multiple scenes of the band widows on the lookout for groupies... a little of this goes a long way.

--The jumping back and forth in time. Again, a little goes a long way.

--Take a look at your formatting (e.g., multiple slugs for Bill & Peg's House), punctuation and grammar (as noted earlier)

--The rumor about the stripper being pregnant. Didn't seem believable.

--The babysitter's reaction to the bartender's lewd comments. She seemed a lot more street-smart in her interactions with Peg.

--Needed more information about their kids and their significant others. They just feel dangled in right now.

--Toward the end, the fighting and arguments get repetitious. Her soliloquy on p. 114 is almost a page long. The "woe is me" stuff gets old.

--AJ's character. Too deferential to Peg.

--Shouldn't Bill be in something other than a covers band? That's a hard way to make a living for more than 20 years. Wouldn't it be better if he and the boys had cut some original CDs and had some type of regional success?

SUGGESTIONS FOR IMPROVING YOUR SCRIPT

Make it about Peg and Bill and their family.

Cool title, but doesn't work. Change it.

To amp up the stakes, why not have a young Peg actually join a band? They have some success. And then just as they're in the midst of cutting their first album of mostly original tunes, she either gets sick or gets pregnant. (I would dispense with the whole illness thing... it's only a small part of the current script).

If she got pregnant just as the band's cutting a record or going on a tour, she would be faced with a series of choices. Should she go forward with the pregnancy? Should she take the baby on tour? She could try and it just wreaks havoc on her and her fellow bandmates. And of course Bill is nowhere around.

She ultimately decides to stay home. Her old band replaces her and they experience some kind of success. That would make her sacrifice seem even more substantial.

Just as her career is ramping up, she gets pregnant again.

As mentioned earlier, Bill's band probably should experience at least some kind of regional success. You don't show anybody trying to get to the next level. For 20 years, they've been playing the same dives. Active characters are always fun to watch.

I would have one of her kids NOT involved in music. Then you get a nice contrast between one child following in the parents' footsteps and another rejecting that way of life (at least on the surface)

I'm just spitballing some possible suggestions. But the potential is there to turn this into a very fine script.

Keep writing,

Greg

[oz]

Thanks for the notes, Greg. Have to admit, some of your suggestions made me laugh because you basically outlined every headache I had with this script ; ) There were so many directions I could have gone, I remember telling Mike Scherer about a year ago that this thing might have to be a book!

Anyway, thanks, again, for taking the time. The theme is actually Surrender but perhaps it's not reading clear enough. I'll look a lot of things over again. And just FYI, I couldn't take anyone going to the next level, cutting albums, touring because these folks are the 90% of musicians who live and die on the small stage. There's a gig in music for everyone, you just have to be willing to play it. I know this world intimately but that's not to say I nailed it.

Apprceciate the time and effort.

[churnage]

Donna,

Based on your comments above, here's some food for thought (again, if you disagree, please disregard)...

1) If your concept is giving you trouble ("headaches'), maybe it's time for a different concept.

2) Surrender is an awful theme. No one wants to spend $9 on a movie where the protagonist gives up. We want to see main characters actively pursuing their dreams/goals. If they fail trying (e.g. Rocky), we still appreciate the effort and the journey.

3) Even musicians "on the small stage" have dreams of something bigger and better. Maybe not all of them, but at least some of them do. Having a bunch of static characters happy with their fates isn't much of a movie.

4) Just as a protagonist must leave the known world and venture into the unknown, so must we as writers.

5) You have the makings of a powerful script. To paraphrase Scott Myers, Go Deeper Into Your Story.

Greg

[oz]

On the previous boards I was criticized by some for never responding beyond the polite "thanks for reading, I'll keep your comments in mind". So I make the effort to expand on my reviewers' comments and now it feels personal. That's fine. I don't need everyone to like my script nor do I need to have a drawn out disagreement. But since you want to continue the conversation....

1. I indicated that it was difficult to narrow down from all the material I had on this concept. I'm completely happy with the concept.

2. Surrender is the theme. The dramatic statement is "Life without passion is never satisfying". Apparently we weren't speaking the same language. And I believe the my characters are in pursuit of their passion.

3. I wanted to write a script that showed something besides the played out wanna-be rock star. This is the other side that no one ever sees or notices. Yet it is in every town, every city and showing how even a small-time dream is worth pursuing was the point. And more importantly, I wanted to tell the story of the women who tolerate the music world when millions of dollars and fame aren't involved. I can accept that I didn't nail it, I don't accept your argument that those who don't pursue the big show are any less valued in the musical community. I've seen too much of it to accept that argument.

4. It would be really easy to write another action film but that is not my passion.

5. It's interesting that you bring Scott into this since I started this specific script at UCLAx with Scott, my professor, who was very excited about the concept.

I'm not interested in a flame war, but I felt compelled to defend myself and my script. I look forward to improving it and wish you nothing but good luck with yours.

[clayjs]

Hi Donna,

Just thought I'd chime in on this fascinating conversation. First, I want to say that I REALLY APPRECIATE your going beyond the "Thanks for reading" basic response to criticism. I wasn't sure what the standard was on that, but I know it can be really hard as a reader to not know how one's criticism is received. There's a very difficult line to walk between a complete and honest response, especially when it's not overwhelmingly positive, and outright abuse (I'm not suggesting that Greg has passed into the 'abuse' zone at any point in his review, but rather that I might have in some of mine, but I don't really know what the writer's response to my criticism was). Moral: Please, keep giving full responses to criticism. I find it awesome.

Second, the current argument that you and Greg are sharing seems to be revolving around two major points:

1: Theme -- You wrote with the theme of Surrender in mind, which Greg doesn't think is a very good theme. Greg read with the theme of Failed Dreams is mind, which he thought was very powerful but not fully exploited. I would offer --

Donna, a full understanding of the writer's theme isn't necessary to a successful reading. For example, if you and I both read Othello we might come up with completely different central themes that it expresses. It's possible that neither of those will match what Shakespeare had in mind, but if each theme leads us to a satisfying understanding of the characters and their actions, it is a perfectly valid theme. If, therefore, you write a script with the theme Surrender in mind, and Greg reads it with the theme Failed Dreams in mind and is able to reach a satisfying understanding of your characters and their actions, then his Failed Dreams theme is just as valid as your Surrender theme. As a writer, we don't get to impose anything that isn't specifically written in our manuscript. Anything that is expressed by it that isn't written equals COMPLEXITY, which is a very good thing.

On the other hand, Greg, you can't very well say, "Your theme is Failed Dreams...[but] you don't fully exploit that theme to the max." A theme imposed on a work (and all discussions of theme that don't involve the author explicitly stating it are of themes imposed on a work) has to be fully valid before it can be argued. Therefore, unless Donna says her theme is Failed Dreams, if the theme of Failed Dreams isn't "fully exploited to the max", then it simply ain't a valid theme.

2: Concept -- Greg, there is no such thing as a concept that is not worthwhile. Sure, some are passion projects that won't have a huge appeal, and that may or may not be the case here. I really like the concept. However, every story that can be told can be told well. It is not necessary to the Hero's Journey model that the protagonist physically leave his/her comfortable world to take the journey. Peg's journey doesn't need to be to LA or Nashville. She's journeying into herself and her past to come to terms with the life she chose and that her daughter is on the brink of choosing. It's only necessary that the characters achieve wide musical recognition if their goal is to achieve wide recognition (or rather if wide recognition gives them what they need to be successful at being human). I think the journey aspect of this script is one of its huge successes.


Third: Donna, you said something really cool in your last response to Greg: "This is the other side that no one ever sees or notices. Yet it is in every town, every city and showing how even a small-time dream is worth pursuing was the point. And more importantly, I wanted to tell the story of the women who tolerate the music world when millions of dollars and fame aren't involved."

This kind of thing is what brainstorming is all about. THIS SHOULD BE EXPRESSED IN A SIDE OF DIALOGUE SOMEWHERE IN YOUR SCRIPT! It was a part of your story that I subconsciously understood, and that explains why it's so effective and interesting, but that I wasn't able to really pin down before. If you make this statement, explicitly, somewhere in there, I think it will give the audience something really, fantastically concrete to hold on to and make your story easier to tell.

Thanks again folks,
Clay

[oz]

Thanks for the insight, Clay. I'll keep your comments in mind ; )

[clayjs]

Ha!

[oz]

In all seriousness, Clay, I had a scene in the script a while back that I ultimately cut. It revolved around Marta being pissed that a former band-mate of Jack's made it big and Oprah had the family on her show to tour the couple's mansion. Of course, Marta looses it (it was "Marta's Oprah Meltdown" in my step outline). The problem I kept having was that although it spelled out as clearly as I could imagine, the difference between women of big-time stars and these women who will never see anything marvelous from their men's passion, it just felt so out of place. These small-town groups certainly know OF people who have made it big but there's no interaction of any sort and it also created the perceived question of 'why don't they go for it' and I was never satisfied with the way that it took away from there being nothing wrong with small-time glory.

Perhaps I'll try something else because it was really one of my favorite scenes AND it explicitly showed that entire issue how it's just a different animal, but it just left me unsatisfied with the cohesion. Didn't mean to sound like a raging bitch but I knew Greg wasn't getting it and had never intended on having to spell it out. Anyway, thanks, sincerely, for the kind words.