oz
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Post by oz on Jan 17, 2012 15:02:54 GMT -5
Okay, folks. I'm putting this up for feedback but with a few caveats. Not to control your critique, but to hopefully avoid everyone focusing on the things I know you'll focus on. First, it's a script about the music world so don't freak out on me about having song titles/lyrics. They stay. You don't have to agree with my decision but I hope you can see past them (if they annoy you) to be able to get the story. Second, it's long. I'm aware of that and having the lyrics included is part of the problem but, as with most things in life, it's a work in progress. And I suppose the third thing is that I'm no Mike Scherer when it comes to loglines so perhaps after someone reads it they can help. LOGLINE: After her daughter's engagement to a musician, a seasoned band widow struggles to find a single reason why the marriage is a good idea. Thanks! Attachments:
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Post by clayjs on Jan 17, 2012 15:13:30 GMT -5
Oz, Just downloaded and sent to my kindle. Good news: It's in my "to read" queue. Bad news: It's right after Citizen Kane.
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oz
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Post by oz on Jan 17, 2012 23:46:41 GMT -5
Seriously bad news, clayjs!! CK's a great script; don't know how I can follow that and not come out with a shiner ; )
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mscherer
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Post by mscherer on Jan 18, 2012 9:49:19 GMT -5
Downloading today -- have notes for you this weekend.
I think I read part of this script way back when and found the writing to be exceptional -- can't wait to read the entire script.
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Post by clayjs on Jan 18, 2012 16:41:42 GMT -5
Oz,
I VERY MUCH enjoyed your script. Your writing is excellent, you juggle two timelines with relative ease, your characters are captivatingly real, and your story abounds with fascinating conflict. I hate to say it, but I'm not sure I'm qualified to give you much in the way of notes. I'll throw some things at you, but take them with a grain of salt, and trust your impeccable instincts. And please, though it may seem like i'm tossing a lot out there, remember that my impression of your script was overwhelmingly positive. These are just some things to think about.
Also, I read most of this where I didn't have access to a pen and paper, so most of my notes are more impressions than specific references. My apologies.
I love that Peg and Bill seem so compatible and perfect at first and they are shown breaking down as the script moves forward, so that we begin with the children's perspective of their relationship and end with Peg's perspective. However, I feel like your third act should work more toward showing how both of those perspectives are valid, and though Bill's dedication to his music makes him insensitive to her needs, their relationship has built to something sustainable and valuable. Thesis-Antithesis-Synthesis. Your ending shows Peg coming to peace with her choices, but does not necessary show that her choices were valid and constructive.
I also feel that Peg's taking over the venue at the end comes a little too easily to her. It resolves the personal fulfillment conflict, but not in a way that satisfyingly requires or rewards a struggle from Peg. Even if the bar is just in financial trouble and Peg's bank job gives her the means to help Gloria get through it, so Gloria decides that Peg is right to take over the job, it would still be a reaction to a forward push by your protagonist, rather than a display of her static acceptance of her situation.
In the first thirty pages or so, it feels like you spend a little too much time introducing characters to other characters. Your script has a lot of characters, so I can see why this seems like a necessary step, but you also show relationships well, so it actually becomes redundant. Instead, skip or minimize introduction scenes and just continue to show characters interacting in a way that makes their relationships to one another clear. It will take up less time and make the audience feel smarter, while giving them the same amount of information in smaller, more manageable chunks.
Along with this, there are a LOT of characters, and excepting Peg and Marta, most of them react to the same stimuli in roughly the same way. The Band Widows are friends by circumstance, which means you get more allowance to make the characters otherwise incompatible. I think it might be interesting to give one pair of characters an open relationship, for example, to show another option for dealing with the groupie problem, and also to cause internal conflict between the band members, since one of them gets the best of both worlds. Just an example, of course.
There are a few scenes that feel repeated. Marta's frustration with 'cowpeople', for example, is demonstrated in the scene with the out-of-place cowgirl, and again in the scene at the country bar. They probably aren't BOTH necessary. There are also a number of scenes where the widows fight off belligerent groupies. These scenes are all effective on their own, but one or two such scenes at key points would be more effective than several and would also do nice things to your page count.
I think your setting could be mentioned earlier. Again, I wasn't able to take notes, but I seem to remember being a good 30 pages in before I knew that the action was taking place in Nebraska. It's possible I just missed it earlier, and it won't be as big a deal once it makes it to the screen, but as a reader, I had a little trouble getting my bearings.
For me, the scene with the irresponsible babysitter/inappropriate bartender was very powerful, but I also think it misses a chance to be even stronger. I think you should consider making it a false victory scene, by letting the audience enjoy Peg's success with her before we all learn about the babysitting problem at the same time when the cops show up. This scene is a major turning point in the story, because it really drives home the fact that Peg can't be a musician and a mother at the same time. As it stands, we are distracted during her triumph because we know something's wrong, so we don't get the false jubilation of enjoying how successful she can be before we are dashed to the rocks along with her.
If you need more specific information or want to discuss any of these points with me, send me a message or post back here.
After all that, I'm VERY excited to read your next draft and watch this become even more awesome.
Thanks for putting your writing out there.
Clay
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oz
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Post by oz on Jan 18, 2012 18:04:44 GMT -5
Thank you for the read, Clay. For someone who didn't have a pencil nearby, your notes were wonderful.
And in a way I'm excited to see that your points of contention were mine, as well. I'll usually wait to see if three or more people agree that an area is weak before I consider changing anything but it's a pretty strong indicator that I need to fix something if readers agree with my gut. That old problem of being too close to it to know if you're seeing it clearly.
The third act was my greatest problem. The theme is surrender so I had hoped that Peg realizing that having the bar would mean she's not giving up the dream --after all she can gig when she wants as owner -- but accepting a new version of it, yet it's obviously not reading that way so I'll give it another go. Same goes for when she finally tells everyone to do their thing (showing both she and Bill are validated); that moment needs more either in stature or set up.
Thanks, again, for taking the time to read and critique. I'll be happy to return the favor when you're ready.
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mscherer
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Post by mscherer on Jan 21, 2012 9:30:31 GMT -5
Donna,
Great writing. Great story. Great characters. I did find it difficult to keep all of the characters and bands straight. You might want to ask yourself: could I tell the same story, just as effectively, with fewer bands and characters.
Oh, and you’re going to have to rework that logline: After her daughter's engagement to a musician, a seasoned band widow struggles to find a single reason why the marriage is a good idea.
To me, the story was more about Peg’s struggle to recognize the worth of her own life and not about ways to prevent her daughter’s marriage.
Maybe something like: A seasoned band widow re-evaluates her own life and marriage after learning her daughter intends to marry a musician.
[page by page critique]
Page 1: Loved the line: If looks could kill he’d take one between the eyes.
Page 2: Found: ‘She paints on a happy face...’ to be clunky. Seems ‘She puts on a happy face...’ would work better.
Page 3: Didn’t get Bill’s line: Wedding must’ve been called off or something.
Page 6: Another great line: Bill studies the band like he interprets an impressionist painting.
Page 12-13: Peg’s description of the band members and the other girl’s reactions -- priceless. Talk about sub-text.
Page 18: You repeat yourself when you say Peg...pulls at the ring on her finger. Then two lines of dialogue and you repeat: Peg pulls at the ring on Tara’s finger.
Page 43: Might need a super to let the audience know that it is three years later: EXT. PARK - DAY SUPER: THREE YEARS LATER
Otherwise you jump from the airport to Peg’s parent’s 30th wedding anniversary with Noah, age two, running around and Peg pregnant with baby number two.
Page 82: EXT. STREET DANCE - NIGHT The band plays on stage outdoors....
I assumed Peg was singing with this band, but she is singing in her basement. I was confused.
Later, during your intercut, we move from Peg, who finds Noah with his head in a garbage can to Marta and Tess outside, but there’s a VO of Peg singing when in fact she’s in the kitchen making a phone call.
Then you go from Peg talking on the phone to a VO of Peg still singing. Confused.
As I said, enjoyed the writing, the characters and the story very much. This would make a truly great Indie flick.
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oz
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Post by oz on Jan 21, 2012 10:21:54 GMT -5
Thanks a bunch for the read, Mike. I knew you'd fix the logline ; )
All great notes and thanks for the catch on the picnic scene super title.
I'll take your help - or anyone's - regarding that intercut scene. Since I'm jumping back and forth and people are in those different scenes change locations (well, kind of locations) WITHIN that intercut, would bullet points or dashes help delineate? I agree that it reads rough but am curious as to how to make it read better.
Thanks, again. I'll get busy and see what I can do although I'm really looking for advice on that pg 82 intercut so whomever's up for it.......thanks in advance.
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mscherer
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Post by mscherer on Jan 21, 2012 10:53:25 GMT -5
Donna,
If you are talking about the INTERCUT between Peg's house and the street party outside (around page 82), I would try using a MONTAGE, but keep Peg's singing VO to tie it all together.
One man's opinion and we all know what opinions are like... ;D
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oz
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Post by oz on Jan 21, 2012 13:01:41 GMT -5
Was just looking over the pages and I think you're dead-on about the montage! Thanks!
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Post by churnage on Feb 12, 2012 21:50:32 GMT -5
Oz,
I'm a slow reader, so I'm going to do this in parts.
I've read 10 pages so far. At this point, I'm intrigued... but also a bit overwhelmed/confused. You've introduced a boatload of characters in two time periods so far.
Edits below.
Greg
P. 1
--should it "same size" instead of "same sized"?
--one space after a period
--insert comma after "kill"
--cap "PEDESTRIANS"
--Peg's Dialogue, change: But remember this ‘cause the last night you had off, six months ago?
To
"remember the last night you had off six months ago?"
P.2
--Cap SMOKERS & PATRONS
--Tweak the following line to avoid double use of "face" in same sentence "She paints on a happy face and tolerates the inconvenience, even hugs a familiar face."
--Cap YOUNG WOMAN
P. 3
--Cap LAUGHS
--Insert comma between "here" & "so"
P. 6
--Cap "TAPS"
--Cap "JUMPS"
--Change "at drums" to "on drums"
--Peg's Dialogue, change "I'm not sure" to "Not sure."
--In description, delete "Peg" and start with "Adjusts"
P. 7
--Cap "SNORTY LAUGH"
--Cap "SLAMS"
--Cap "LAUGHS"
--Change slug from "ON STAGE" to "STAGE"
P. 8
--Change slug from "AT THE TABLE" to "BOOTH"
--Cap "COUGHS"
--hypenate "booze-soaked"
P. 9
--Delete Slug "Carl's Roadhouse Tavern" -- not needed. Just go with FLASHBACK - 30 YEARS EARLIER
--Cap "DRUNKS"
--The Shift from the Roadhouse Tavern to the Lemontree Bar is confusing. Perhaps adding something like FLASHBACK in Slug or Description to alert the reader, even though the location has changed we're still in the same time period.
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oz
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Post by oz on Feb 13, 2012 0:53:09 GMT -5
Greg, it is with great appreciation and respect that I thank you for your notes. Well, almost all of your notes ; )
Without revealing my age, let it suffice that I am of the age of two spaces after a period. Period. It has been ingrained in me since I took my first typing class on manual typewriters in junior high. My highest recorded typing test was at, if I recall, 90 words a minute and although I don't recall if that is a good score or perhaps just average, I know with everything that is holy in my life, that I'll never be able to change that perfunctory habit and dwindle it down to the now-acceptable one space. Period. It will never happen. There are so many other things in life that I still want to be challeneged by. This is simply not one of them. And in all honestly, I belive I would have to be beaten down by a disease and left only to type with my eyes before it could ever come to be so singularly spaced. Period.
I am grateful for the programs that automatically eliminate one period in text (I think this may be one such program) but unless and until Final Draft offers the same service, I will, without any knowledge or foresight, place two spaces after periods. Period.
It makes me just a little crazy that it ever changed. ; )
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Post by churnage on Feb 13, 2012 22:06:29 GMT -5
Oz,
The two spaces after a period was the standard. Plenty of people still use it. Seen it in a number of screenplays, including Mike's.
All of my suggestions are just suggestions. If you disagree, please ignore.
Here are my next section of notes. Got up to page 25.
My general impression so far... Things are moving slow. The first scene, including the multiple flashbacks, went on for a long time. I'm also losing track of who people are. You have two bands in two time periods, along with girlfriends, groupies, family members and hangers-on.
P. 9
--Forgot this from yesterday... No description of Lemontree Bar
P. 11
--Cap "SLAMS"
P. 12
--Cap "SNAP"
--Description, rewrite sentence with "winks" & "winces". Too close together. Also another phrase for "creamy lead". Too flowery.
--Peg's Dialogue, sounds too writerly ("deeply, passionately, intimately connecting with you") especially for someone who's been pounding shots.
--Same with "limitless stamina"
P. 13
--"laidback" is one word
--Cap "DRUNK SNORT"
--not sure if "transfix" is the right word. Should it be "fixate"?
--Cap "BLEED"
--Cap "EXPLOSIVE LAUGHTER"
--Airport, "DUSK" could be put in the SLUG
P. 14
--insert comma between "chance" & "but"
--"raindrop" is one word
--insert comma between "knows" & "so"
--Like the "I hadn't met you yet" dialogue
--Tighten description after "They kiss." Delete "between their youth and the moment". Instead of three graphs, turn into one.
--Cap "JOLTS"
--Change "stares" into "staring"
--Lots of mentions of Peg's "face" so far -- 3 faces in 3 graphs... also earlier lots of pasting on smiles, painting on smiles, etc.
P. 16
--"babysitter" is one word
--Cap "ARGUE"
--not sure where "the family's table" is... same table as before? I'm losing track of all the different people.
--Cap "GIGGLES"
--Cap "SCURRIES"
P. 18
--two "pulls at" the finger... reword second time around. Followed by "pulls Peg away".
P. 19
--"a silence not to be trusted" -- too writerly
P. 20
--Delete second mention of Embarrassed Groupie in description. Just start with "Drags her friend..."
P. 21
--Cap "SIGHS"
--Condense Marta's 7-line dialogue beginning "Don't tell me..." ... shorter would be punchier
P. 22
--change "sobers" to "sobers up"
--Simon, "at load out" sounds off. Should it be "when we were loading up"?
P. 23
--Cap "FLUSHES"
--On Slug, replace hyphen/dash with comma:
BILL & PEG’S HOUSE, LIVING ROOM
P. 24
--Tighten description. Something like:
Peg STARTLES. Pulls the headphones off. MUSIC continues to blare.
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oz
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Post by oz on Feb 13, 2012 23:12:24 GMT -5
Just playing around, Greg. Doubt anyone's script would ever become better because of one space versus two! ; )
But thanks for the notes. They really are appreciated.
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Post by churnage on Feb 14, 2012 22:51:21 GMT -5
Ox,
Got up to page 44.
P. 25
--"swipes meat" -- is that a reference to her work or is she stealing cutlets?
--"WHIR of machinery." Sentence could end there.
--Delete "AT" from sluglines
P. 26
--Tess, "he don't ever do nothing"... doesn't match her other dialogue
--Correct SLUG:
INT. MEATPACKING PLANT, HALLWAY - DAY
--Move INTERCUT after Peg answers the phone
P. 27
--"pretense of patience", too writerly
P. 28
--Peg needs a better line "smarter than your average bimbo"
--Cap LAUGHS
--Do we need "one of the men waiting..."?
--Cap "BELTS OUT"
P. 29
--Use SLUG for BAR
P. 30
--Delete "She"... change to "Joins Bill at the bar."
--having trouble following all the different bands on Marta's t-shirts
P. 31
--insert question mark after "adorable?"
--Delete "The"... go with "Band's on break."
P. 32
--Cap "LAUGHS"
--Tighten description "Marta shoots..."
--Replace (beat) with ellipses
--Lea's "Just ridiculous" sounds more like a criticism than support.
--"spotlight" is one word
--Not sure "who gets poked by an elbow". Rewrite.
P. 33
--Cap "CLAPS"
--Insert comma between "stage" & "she"
--Cap "MARCHES"
P. 34
--Tighten description beginning with "Drunk Cowgirls sips..." Got "sips" twice.
P. 35
--If she's going to pick up the pitcher, why doesn't Drunk Cowgirl dump it or throw it at Marta? The groupie also has a glass she could throw instead.
--Cap "SCREAM"
--Cap "LAUGHING"
--Fix "(beat... to Marta)"
P. 36
--Cap "LAUGH"
--Fix Slug
--Cap "MOANS"
P.37
--"stop the smile that defies his guilt", too writerly.
--do you need the Inside & Outside the shower slugs?
--"when're" is that correct?
--"storefront" is one word
P. 38
--Description, how about something like..."Giant beach balls fill the air, bouncing off raised hands."
--Are they in an outside arena?
--how about "eat barbecue by the beer tent"?
--Cap LAUGH
--You have back to back "LATER" slugs. The second one should be STAGE.
--"Simon's not into it" is confusing. Is it reference to Peg who's singing the Paul Simon part?
P. 39
--Delete "ER" from before "DOCTOR"
--Delete "with the end of the pen"
P. 40
--hyphenate "six-year"
--Delete "She" from 1st description
--If she stutters, show it in the dialogue.
--Tighten description at the park...
--Do we need the VOICEOVER? Would this be better if she was talking to a friend?
P. 41
--Like this airport scene. It's a little long, though.
--"timetable" is one word
--Cap "LAUGHS"
P. 42
--Add "If" before "I can't find...' change "like this" to "now"
--would it be better if she got the gig with the band? or another band?
--change "jerks up" to "JERKS"
P. 43
--change "takes a stab". Confusing. Thought you meant it literally.
--insert question mark after "stop?"
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